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arc wing sail

Hier kun je alles kwijt wat te maken heeft met speed, slalom, formula en de raceboard klasse.

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Bananentiger
Funboarder in spe
Funboarder in spe
Berichten: 144
Lid geworden op: wo jul 01, 2009 10:43 am
Zeilnummer: GER-57

Re: arc wing sail /Double Surface Sail

Bericht door Bananentiger » do sep 11, 2014 3:29 pm

Hi Gerrit,

I have been following your work with interest.

I do see following advantages at the moment:
+++ controllability and handling
++ larger wind range for one sail
+ speed
And following disadvantages:
- weight, but this can be handled by an appropriate material choice
- Rigging and De-Rigging will take a small while longer, but you have an eye on that.

There are some open questions:
Do you think this design fits to a 380 Raceboard?
What about Waterstart? Any issues compared with other sails with large mast pockets?
Does it need more space for transportation?
What about the mast? Can I use standard ones or is this specific (more specific than mast and sail from same manufacturer)?
What about the Price? Should not be an issue as it should replace at least one other sail due to larger wind range for one sail.
How much influence does the wind strength has to the profile?
What about Trimming? Can you still trim the sail with down- and outhaul?

I am personally using just a 380 Raceboard, therefore looking here for this specific.
I do not see advantage for low wind / non planning conditions with this sail in speed. And controllability/handling is not an issue at low wind.
But it is getting more interesting at medium and especially strong winds. I always had issues to handle a 9,5 sqm sail at more than 18 knots and there are Raceboarders who are using it also still at much more wind. Therefore controllability/handling is one very important topic for me.

But here is than also the question for trimming.
On a Raceboard, as you know, you need to use the sail on a huge wind range, which requires the ability to trim the sail with down- and outhaul. When you go downwind you need to loose outhaul and upwind you tighten it again. At stronger wind you tighten downhaul to open the top leech. Are you still able to do that with your design?

On the ARCWING I do not see possibility to change outhaul to adapt the sail profile to the wind. Due to the fixed profile with this large carbon component creating the asymmetrical profile, I do not see a chance for outhaul trimming. Also there is not much trimming in downhaul as the sail is not designed to it and the double surface is going from the front to the back to the sail. So no loose leech there.

The SOFTWING from Heru/Challenger Sails is designed at the moment for formula racing. You can trim with down- and outhaul. I do not know why they added the feature to change also the thickness of the profile but they have it , but do not see advantage out of it. Therefore that may work, but their double surface profile is not over the whole sail and I do not know if this surface is too much influenced by the wind strength pushing the profile in place.

Thanks.

Nelson Foils
Worldcupper wannabe
Worldcupper wannabe
Berichten: 412
Lid geworden op: ma mar 31, 2014 11:59 am

Re: arc wing sail

Bericht door Nelson Foils » vr sep 12, 2014 12:10 am

I do see following advantages at the moment:
+++ controllability and handling YES
++ larger wind range for one sail YES
+ speed Yes
And following disadvantages:
- weight, but this can be handled by an appropriate material choice
- Rigging and De-Rigging will take a small while longer, but you have an eye on that. IT WILL NOT TAKE ANY LONGER TO RIGG THAN A FULL RACESAIL
[/url]
There are some open questions:
Do you think this design fits to a 380 Raceboard? YES I WILLING TO SAIL IT EVEN ON MY DivII :D
[/url]What about Waterstart? Any issues compared with other sails with large mast pockets? THERE IS NO MASTPOCKET ! WATER IS FREE TO FLOW OUT OF THE SAIL
Does it need more space for transportation? YES YOU GOT 2 SAILS BUT THEY ROLL VERY COMPACT
What about the mast? Can I use standard ones or is this specific more specific than mast and sail from same manufacturer)?

MAYBY THE BEST ! ANY MAST WILL DO SO TAKE A SUPER LIGHT ONE !

What about the Price? Should not be an issue as it should replace at least one other sail due to larger wind range for one sail. TIME WILL TELL
[/url]How much influence does the wind strength has to the profile?
What about Trimming? Can you still trim the sail with down- and outhaul? THE WING NEEDS LESS TRIMMING
I am personally using just a 380 Raceboard, therefore looking here for this specific.
I do not see advantage for low wind / non planning conditions with this sail in speed. And controllability/handling is not an issue at low wind. THERE IS A VERY BIG ADVANTAGE IN 5 to 15Kn
But it is getting more interesting at medium and especially strong winds. I always had issues to handle a 9,5 sqm sail at more than 18 knots and there are Raceboarders who are using it also still at much more wind. Therefore controllability/handling is one very important topic for me.

A raceboard sail with Max downhaul is 6m² sail and 3.5m² Flag ... In 15Kn you take a 6m² Wing super light end easy to handel and control

But here is than also the question for trimming.
On a Raceboard, as you know, you need to use the sail on a huge wind range, which requires the ability to trim the sail with down- and outhaul. When you go downwind you need to loose outhaul and upwind you tighten it again. At stronger wind you tighten downhaul to open the top leech. Are you still able to do that with your design?

On the ARCWING I do not see possibility to change outhaul to adapt the sail profile to the wind. Due to the fixed profile with this large carbon component creating the asymmetrical profile, I do not see a chance for outhaul trimming. Also there is not much trimming in downhaul as the sail is not designed to it and the double surface is going from the front to the back to the sail. So no loose leech there.

The SOFTWING from Heru/Challenger Sails is designed at the moment for formula racing. You can trim with down- and outhaul. I do not know why they added the feature to change also the thickness of the profile but they have it , but do not see advantage out of it. Therefore that may work, but their double surface profile is not over the whole sail and I do not know if this surface is too much influenced by the wind strength pushing the profile in place.

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Bananentiger
Funboarder in spe
Funboarder in spe
Berichten: 144
Lid geworden op: wo jul 01, 2009 10:43 am
Zeilnummer: GER-57

Re: arc wing sail

Bericht door Bananentiger » za sep 13, 2014 1:58 pm

The only thing I do not understand is the one for stronger wind.

But I am getting curious.

Is there a chance to see and test one?

Nelson Foils
Worldcupper wannabe
Worldcupper wannabe
Berichten: 412
Lid geworden op: ma mar 31, 2014 11:59 am

Re: arc wing sail

Bericht door Nelson Foils » za sep 13, 2014 8:24 pm

When the wind gets stronger you do not trim the profile flatter , you decrease the angle of attack a little .

With a Wing you take out the amount of power you can handle , it is not a problem to sail with a "half open sail".
The pressure is build up from the front and not from the leech .

There is no sailable or testable wingrigg yet. ;( ;(

If all goes well my sailmaker will have some time to work on the project later this month.

If all goes well.... :eh:

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Bananentiger
Funboarder in spe
Funboarder in spe
Berichten: 144
Lid geworden op: wo jul 01, 2009 10:43 am
Zeilnummer: GER-57

Re: arc wing sail

Bericht door Bananentiger » zo sep 14, 2014 9:18 am

I still do think too much as a sail and not as a wing. But now I understand.

I have time to wait. I assume till 2015 season there will be a chance.

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Bananentiger
Funboarder in spe
Funboarder in spe
Berichten: 144
Lid geworden op: wo jul 01, 2009 10:43 am
Zeilnummer: GER-57

Re: arc wing sail

Bericht door Bananentiger » ma okt 06, 2014 3:36 pm

Can you still pump with this sail? Is it so rigid or is there still twist/flexibility?
I have just seen photos and vidoes from last World Championship of Raceboards and at the start you do not have a chance wihtout pumping.

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NED 321
Windsurf guru
Windsurf guru
Berichten: 2270
Lid geworden op: vr aug 30, 2002 2:56 pm
Zeilnummer: NED-321
Surf spul: Speeeeeed...zie profiel
Contacteer:

Re: arc wing sail

Bericht door NED 321 » wo jan 21, 2015 11:24 pm

bron = http://www.voiles-alternatives.com/view ... ?f=3&t=355

google translate FR-NL
https://translate.google.com/translate? ... edit-text=

lekker knutselen
Afbeelding

wordt er niet simpeler op
Afbeelding

Afbeelding

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barth
Freeride pro
Freeride pro
Berichten: 294
Lid geworden op: zo jan 05, 2014 2:09 pm
Surf spul: JP - Starboard - Goya - Gun - Naish - North

Re: arc wing sail

Bericht door barth » do jan 22, 2015 12:25 am

errug benieuwd naar wat het word?!

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Peter Vernet
Freeride pro
Freeride pro
Berichten: 381
Lid geworden op: za feb 26, 2005 12:06 pm
Surf spul: WSJ-tandem-Naish boards//Gun Sails/Vortex Racing Vinnen

Re: arc wing sail

Bericht door Peter Vernet » do jan 22, 2015 6:44 pm

zwaar?

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Agent Mulder
Worldcupper wannabe
Worldcupper wannabe
Berichten: 759
Lid geworden op: wo jan 07, 2004 10:32 am
Surf spul: SEVERNE REFLEX, FANATIC, THUNDERBIRD, SELECT, IFINS

Re: arc wing sail

Bericht door Agent Mulder » vr jan 23, 2015 12:37 pm

Lijkt erop dat er meer mensen met dit soort ideeen spelen, het is niet het zelfde, maar toch ....

http://forum.windsurfing.nl/viewtopic.p ... &p=7350542

Nelson Foils
Worldcupper wannabe
Worldcupper wannabe
Berichten: 412
Lid geworden op: ma mar 31, 2014 11:59 am

Re: arc wing sail

Bericht door Nelson Foils » za nov 04, 2017 1:20 pm

https://www.mwsails.com/wingsail-story

Website is er ...
9491c8_c9c3ce33e2dc4d909357f8c3c859e413~mv2_d_5764_3508_s_4_2.jpg
9491c8_c9c3ce33e2dc4d909357f8c3c859e413~mv2_d_5764_3508_s_4_2.jpg (127.99 KiB) 688 keer bekeken

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WsurfMarc
Worldcupper wannabe
Worldcupper wannabe
Berichten: 473
Lid geworden op: do jul 15, 2010 11:12 am

Re: arc wing sail

Bericht door WsurfMarc » za nov 04, 2017 6:07 pm

Mooi.

Wat is de oppervlakte van het zeil en hoeveel weegt het nu ? (zonder mast & giek)

Nelson Foils
Worldcupper wannabe
Worldcupper wannabe
Berichten: 412
Lid geworden op: ma mar 31, 2014 11:59 am

Re: arc wing sail

Bericht door Nelson Foils » za nov 04, 2017 7:42 pm

Lees even de info op de site als je wil , maar het korte antwoord :

https://www.mwsails.com/wingsail-story

4.5m² en 5.8m²


Handling the wing.

People think that the wing is heavy equipment, until they see my 116lb wife caring her wing trough the parking lot with no effort. Wing is just 1kg heavier than slalom sail of equal area. But this is on the parking lot where there is no wind. When wing is exposed to moving air, it becomes weightless.

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Barbatruc
Worldcupper wannabe
Worldcupper wannabe
Berichten: 417
Lid geworden op: zo sep 27, 2015 12:24 pm
Surf spul: Starboard, Quatro, JP, 5-Oceans, Ka Sail, CAAS masten, Patagonia pak

Re: arc wing sail

Bericht door Barbatruc » za nov 04, 2017 8:14 pm

@Nelson Foils ik heb net t draadje teruggelezen. Heb je je eigen zeil nog weten te maken? Of ben je er mee gestopt? Klinkt toch interessant

Nelson Foils
Worldcupper wannabe
Worldcupper wannabe
Berichten: 412
Lid geworden op: ma mar 31, 2014 11:59 am

Re: arc wing sail

Bericht door Nelson Foils » za nov 04, 2017 8:32 pm

Je heb een PB .

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WsurfMarc
Worldcupper wannabe
Worldcupper wannabe
Berichten: 473
Lid geworden op: do jul 15, 2010 11:12 am

Re: arc wing sail

Bericht door WsurfMarc » zo nov 05, 2017 1:24 pm

Het staat vast ergens vermeld in de 11 pagina's voorheen, maar wat is nu het inzetbereik van zo'n 5.8m2 voor een doorsnee 85kg windsurfer ?

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Barbatruc
Worldcupper wannabe
Worldcupper wannabe
Berichten: 417
Lid geworden op: zo sep 27, 2015 12:24 pm
Surf spul: Starboard, Quatro, JP, 5-Oceans, Ka Sail, CAAS masten, Patagonia pak

Re: arc wing sail

Bericht door Barbatruc » zo nov 05, 2017 1:46 pm

Of een doorsnee lichtgewicht van 60-65 kg :lol:

Nelson Foils
Worldcupper wannabe
Worldcupper wannabe
Berichten: 412
Lid geworden op: ma mar 31, 2014 11:59 am

Re: arc wing sail

Bericht door Nelson Foils » zo nov 05, 2017 3:00 pm

Stanley weegt ong. 81kg en vaart met de 5.8m² vanaf 15kn en met een minimaal dichtgetrokken zeil tot +35kn .

Nelson Foils
Worldcupper wannabe
Worldcupper wannabe
Berichten: 412
Lid geworden op: ma mar 31, 2014 11:59 am

Re: arc wing sail

Bericht door Nelson Foils » ma nov 06, 2017 1:41 pm

De "real life" optuig video


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